Pyramus+Thisbe/Darkness&Death

2.) In what ways do the story's closing lines (165-66) aptly conclude the darkness/death imagery which Ovid has developed throughout the narrative?

The last two lines just about capture both meanings, with the "color in pOmO..Ater," and the "urnA". Both the death of Pyramus and Thisbe as well as the transformation of the once light fruit to a deep, dark color are concluded.
Throughout the poem you see references to darkness and light, and life and death, both sets being related. As said in class, it seems as though Ovid is balancing. The real deep meanings of dark/light don't really appear until line 81, when they're starting to plan their escape. "Postera nocturnOs AurOra remOverat ignEs," there is an evident balance between the personified 'Dawn' and the 'nocturnal fires' (stars). Dawn obviously being the light and stars being the night/dark reference. This whole chunk of poem is a narrative balancing night and light saying the dawn removed the stars, the sun dried the grass, lots of references towards daytime. And not so much coincidentally they haven't decided to run away yet. But then they do plan it, in the "nocte silentI" they are going to decieve their parents. Not a good thing. They are in their boundaries and safe during the day, but once night comes, they are going to leave the safety into the darkness. Also, him talking about morning/light first then going on to talk about night/dark is him balancing. And not only are they going out into the unsafe darkness, they are meeting at "busta NinI..sub umbrA arboris"! Big flashing light of death AND darkness!! Ovid clearly does this on purpose. He balances life with death and light with darkness as well as safety with wilderness throughout the whole poem, each of which they bubble down to the simple life and death balance. And then, after repeatedly talking about the shade and the fruit's darkness and all the bad dark stuff that comes with night, Pyramus and Thisbe kill themselves, both ending up lying in the tree's dark shadow. And Ovid aptly concludes the darkness of the fruit and the death of the lovers with the summed up explanation of "nam color in pOmO est, ubi permAtUruit, Ater, quodque rogIs superest, UnA requiEscit in urnA." They have died, and with their bloody deaths, (also not a coincidence that it's when it matures and there have been many,many,many double meanings of words with fertility/unproductivity), the fruits start off white(light/life) and end up a deep purple/maroon(darkness/death). Nothing in this poem is a coincidence.

P+T 128-146 #3 pg.47

The simile isn't pretty or attractive as said but it definitely is effective. After reading the two things being compared, "fistula plumbO scinditur," and, "Cruor Emicat altE," you know what he's talking about. Then he goes further to say it spurts out as if long streams of water(coming out from the pipe), "longas EiaculAtur aquAs,". When you finish reading the simile you know the blood is shooting out high, you know he has inflicted upon himself a very deep and very fatal wound, and also, you know most definitely he is going to die with all of that blood beating out of him. And also, outside the simile, he goes on to paint an even more vivid and clear picture in the reader's mind, "ictibus Aera rumpit". In three lines Ovid not only disgusts and creeps out many people but he has captured one of the most horrific scenes and put the most distinct and intense image in my mind.

105-127 FOS

Throughout all of Pyramus and Thisbe, at this point just the parts that we've translated, I keep seeing figures of speech cleverly worked in. First in line 117 there is anaphora with 'dedit'. He sheds tears because of the veil and gives kisses to the veil, both describing how hurt he must have been under the impression Thisbe was no longer alive by his fault. Then in lines 122-123, there is a simile: "nOn aliter quam cum vitiAtO fistula plumbO scinditur,". This adds to the overall gore of the situation and unfortunately puts an even more vivid and unwanted image in my mind of his pulsing blood being similar to that of water spurting out of a broken pipe. And lastly, in line 124, there is chiasmus: "EiaculAtur aquAs...Aera rumpit." The simile before and the chiasmus here both work together to further illustrate how obviously fatal his self-inflicted wound was. All these figures of speech are used to add detail and clarity to the horrible prediciment Pyramus unnecessarily puts himself in.

105-127 Limerick

Pyramus was suppose to meet Thisbe,
but he arrived late accidentally,
he saw blood on her veil,
and tracks that prevailed,
so he stabbed himself through his thingy.

Pyramus et Thisbe 55-104

In this poem there are many walls, physical ones and various metaphorical ones.
First, there's the wall itself between their homes. It separates Pyramus and Thisbe by just being there. Although it separates them, it also is the only way for them to talk, which is pretty ironic. It keeps them from seeing and touching eachother but allows them to speak through a small crack, "fissus erat tenui rima, quam duxerat olim, cum fieret, paries". The other physical wall is the one which Semiramis surrounded the city with, "ubi dicitur altam coctilibus muris cinxisse Semiramis urbem". This wall separates the wilderness from the city where all the people live.
In a more poetic and metaphorical sense, there is another wall..the one that the fathers of Pyramus and Thisbe have created by forbidding them to be married, "sed vetuere patres".
Pyramus and Thisbe are separted by so many things, you can tell that they are not suppose to be together and maybe even that these things are the only way to stay safe.

Pyramus et Thisbe (55-77)

To start, Pyramus and Thisbe has to be seen as a classic work considering it is still remembered and that it's basic plot/scenes was borrowed in William Shakespeare's epic play Romeo and Juliet. Other than that, the poem itself is captivating.
Ovid uses a lot of rhetorical devices and figures of speech while expressing his intended explanation of transformation. The most fascinating, in my opinion, was his onomatopoeia in line 68 and into line 69. "vIdistis amantEs, et vOcis fEcistis". The repetition of 's' very much resembles the secret lovers whispering through the crack. He also uses a rhetorical question: "quid nOn sentit amor?". Not very fascinating but very much true. When you're in love, especially a concealed love, you will definitely notice anything that would allow your love to not be as confined. And lastly, in the beginning of the poem, the very first lines in fact, he uses chiasmus. "iuvenum pulcherrimus alter...altera...praelAta puellIs". What I think is interesting here, specifically, is not only his use of chiasmus but that it almost resembles Pyramus on one side of the wall and Thisbe on the other, "iuvenum" is on the far left(in its order) while "puellIs" is on the far right. When you look at the two lines together, it really does appear that one is on one side and the other is on the other side.

8 (limerick)

Catullus was so full of passion,
By Lesbia his heart took a lashin',
He chose to end his sadness,
Since his life was now crapness,
So now his life can be smashin'.

75

The past few poems we've been working with are all about the same thing: Lesbia's infidelity and the affect it has on Catullus. He still cannot respect her nor can he stop his love for her. He's destroying himself, torturing himself, he can't get out of this. It seems to me he's stuck and confused. He knows what Lesbia did is wrong, obviously, since he's not able to respect her any longer but he can't find the strength to end it with her. I think the theme here is his passion, but now in a different sense than it was in the poems where he was saying give me a thousand kisses, nobody can be loved more than he loves Lesbia, and so on. Now, this new and to me more intense passion deals with him not being able "desistere amare". His love is no longer the mushy, touchy feely, super romantic stuff. It's serious now, she's hurt him and it's like even though the respect and the liking isn't there, it's stronger since he knows it can't be stopped, not even by himself.
I love how he uses "si optima fias" and "omnia si facias" to support what he's saying. They are opposites, being the best and doing all the worst, but they both make sense together for what he's trying to get out. Also they both have 'si' and words dealing with making/becoming. It plays with the idea of balance, Catullus seems to balance his poems out all the time. It's interesting how he puts the infinitives "bene velle" and "desistere amare" almost right on top of eachother, again balancing themselves. The verbs/nouns in a lot of his poems usually are balanced in this way or another, their position opposite eachother like in 51 or with two opposite words as in 72.

85

He starts with a paradox: 'Odi et amo'. The only ways these verbs are similar are in person and that they are feelings. If you're in love, you're not hating but if you are hating, you are not in love. How is it possible to do both? Well, the only way to love and hate is if something happened like in poem 72. This is clearly a reflection of the situation that occured in poem 72. He 'odi et amo' because Lesbia no longer 'solum..nosse Catullum'. Not only that but he is tortured by the feelings he's forced to feel. This poem really reminds me of a show I have connected to before, The OC. Seth smoked when Summer, his girlfriend, repeatedly told him not to do so. Obviously smoking isn't at the same level as cheating but cheating is implied that you won't do it and Summer explicitly told him not to do that. In the show, Summer wanted to take him back but she was too hurt that he would do something she clearly didn't approve of. What I wanted to specifically connect to was that Summer appeared to be tortured by it because she loved Seth, in the same way Catullus loved Lesbia, but couldn't help feeling hurt. In both situations, the lover was hurt and even though what the other did was horrible they couldn't help but be with them. In the real world, the same thing happens. Lovers are constantly powerless, when actually in love, to leave their partner even if they've done a horrible thing like cheating.

72

Catullus loves literary games. He always does little things that at first glance you may not notice. In 51 he puts 'ille' and 'te' opposite from eachother and in the poem he specifically says that that guy was sitting opposite her(Lesbia). In this poem he plays with the words of to know. He uses 'nosse', the word that has intimate connotation but uses 'cognovi', the word with a meaning of him finding out or learning about her, obviously that shows he has figured something out. Using the different wordes of to know make me notice that Lesbia now knows(intimately) somebody else: it sheds light on the situation. It is now evident this poem is about cheating on your significant other. What I really found to be fascinating, however, was his conclusion of the matter. He does not seem angry that this has happened, I got more a feel of hurt. He is forced to feel more love for her(unwillingly because she definitely hurt him) since now he knows their bond is so strong she can't make him stop loving her. He was made jealous so it makes sense that since he is powerless to end the love, he can no longer hold her at the high respect she was held at before. This is definitely true because I know that if I was in this situation and I truly loved the person I most likely wouldn't just stop loving them but I wouldn't be able to respect them as much. What I just said also influences that this is truly classsic since the things he's referring to can connect to me.

86

This poem is another one which point is to show how Lesbia is overwhelmingly beautiful and beyond compare. It reminds me a lot of poem 43, where he bad-mouthed a girl when she was compared to Lesbia. In this poem, he compares Lesbia to Quintia to prove her beauty, sortof the opposite of what happened in poem 43 but the general concept of both is the use of comparison to exemplify Lesbia's radiance. Also like in poem 43 he denounces Quintia at first to later make Lesbia seem much more beautiful. The biggest difference I think there is, however, is that he seemed to have hated the girl in poem 43 but here he respects her but doesn't think she is beautiful since Lesbia is the most beautiful. Also, in poem 43 he says her 'walk' is sloppy but Quintia's is 'upright'. These are just the comparisons of the two poems, though.
It is obvious that Catullus thinks Lesbia is very graceful and fine, but it's pretty arrogant of him to publicy impugn these girls/people to proclain her beauty. Catullus seems to enjoy publicly humiliating people he for whatever reason doesn't like. Like obviously in poem 43 like I already compared, when he asked the rhetorical question "ten provincia narrat esse bellam", and in poem 69 with "quare aut crudelem nasorum interfice pestem aut admirari desine cur fugiunt." In this poem he still criticizes but it seems to like her a bit more.

22 compared to 43

Catullus is a critic. Not a terribly mean or nice one but a critic. He criticizes his own life too! These three poems are all criticism. 22 specifically criticizes a 'poet' named Suffenus who Catullus thought neccessary to make publicy known was horrible. Like in poem 43, Suffenus did not think he was a bad poet, he actually thought he was a sophisticated poet. In poem 43 the girl was thought to be beautiful and even compared to Lesbia when, according to Catullus, she was just the opposite. Perhaps Catullus just likes to shed light on some certain things that that people truly are incapable of seeing for themselves.
No matter what the case, after reading these three poems, poem number 43, and almost all of the other poems we have been reading in class, I think Catullus can be a pretty comical poet. I can't imagine anybody hearing this, whatever the time period, and not laughing. He says Rufus has a goat under his armpit! The critical poems seem to me to be on the funny side. So, maybe he likes making people laugh at the plain truth?
In conclusion, although I am not entirely sure and can't even be since Catullus is no longer among the living, I think Catullus enjoys criticizing people for his pleasure and for other people's laughter.

92

When first read what Catullus says is a contradiction: with the first lines the reader automatically gets confused because of the paradox introduced. He says Lesbia always talks bad about him but he knows she loves him. When further read things are clarified a little bit more, it's the same for him. There is still room for further explanation.
As said in class there are numerous reasons this could be happening. They could have to speak badly about eachother in public because it is a secret affair, or maybe it's a love-hate type of relationship. Both are reasonable but my theory of it is different. At this point in the storyline any of those things are good suggestions..although we aren't sure of the situation yet I feel I am able to strongly estimate what is going on. This one we discussed most in class, that they simply are in love and just pick at eachother. Even friends do it to other friends. Once you've been in a person's life for so long you pick at them. That's probably exactly what's going on.
This really reminded me of my favorite show, The OC. There's a married couple, Sandy and Kirsten, who do pick at eachother. Countless instances in the show support that they are madly in love with eachother, but that doesn't change the fact that they don't get annoyed with little things. Once, Sandy was staying home in his robe and black socks and Kirsten just started ambushing him with snarky comments that led him to finally go to work. I just got an image of them in my mind when Catullus started saying Lesbia talks badly about him.
So it is completely reasonable that they are just picking at eachother, but sadly, there's only room for theories.

87

To me, this poem seems just so serious. It's almost even strict. The feelings he is writing about are definite and secure. He gets right to the point, the love for Lesbia is beyond compare. It's even short, two simple couplets that describe what he's trying to get out so perfectly and precisely. He wants it to be short because he wants it to be simple. He doesn't use any fancy elaboration to describe it and he doesn't even compare it to anything like all the other poems.
When read I believe this poem should be spoken kindof softly but with a sense of determination in the voice. I say determined just because since the poem is so short I think Catullus wants it to be heard that way.
A reoccuring theme I notice here is trust and the sacredness of having trust in another person. The reason for him loving her more than anybody has been loved is because of the trust they have. Faithfullness and being loyal in a relationship seem to be important to Catullus, considering his poems almost always touch on that thought. Being faithful is definitely important and it has been forever. There are countless songs, shows, movies, etc on how faith is important. Catullus is one of the many who share this common value in trust.

5

After reading this poem and after our discussion in class, I think Catullus (the poet and character) has fears about jealousy and people gossipping. Those fears are shown not only in this poem but the other poems we've read, too. This poem is the most blatant in revealing his underlying anxieties about gossip so it makes sense that I'm realizing this now. He flat out says he doesn't want people to gossip about them. He makes sure to note that there will be thousands of kisses but also that he doesn't want anybody to know how many kisses so that nobody will be able 'invidEre'.
In poem 51 he gets very jealous of 'that guy'. As well as in poem 2, it almost seems as if he is jealous of Lesbia's sparrow!
My point is jealousy is almost always present and referenced in his poems so obviously it is something that bothers him and is constantly on his mind. Maybe he cares too much about what poeple think? Or people in his time care a lot about what others are doing?

7

Catullus loves Lesbia. He is overwhelmingly infatuated with her and it is also pretty clear he has those same feelings about kissing her.
He seems to me to be a very passionate person, especially when it comes to Lesbia. I love the way he answers the question apparently presented by Lesbia. By comparing how many kisses he wants to the amount of sand in these places he lists, he is saying that he wants basically an infinite amount.
I've noticed that all his poems are about loving Lesbia. This considered, I wonder how the tones and themes of his poems will change if anything bad happens to Lesbia or even the relationship that they have with eachother. Now, the tones are loving and very much nice and sweet. I'll just have to wait and find out how, if they even do, change...

43

Throughout the poem Catullus just bad mouths this girl who is the mistress of another guy he clearly doesn't like that much as well.
I can tell he must have gotten pretty mad when he heard that the girl previously mentioned was being compared to Lesbia. Because of hearing that he calls the age he was living in 'tasteless and coarse'.
This poem further validates my earlier thinking that Catullus' passion and love for Lesbia is immense and also that those two very deep emotions are things of vitality to him. Every poem, in some way/shape/form, has been about his undying and evidently intense love for Lesbia. He calls her his 'shining lady', when she's with another man 'a thin flame' runs through his body, and the final and most establishing piece of evidence that love is ever important to him, when he hears some ugly girl with an unsophisticated walk and a slobbery mouth is being compared to his astoundinly beautiful love, he goes out of his way to illustrate just how much she is not in comparison with Lesbia.

83

Lesbia acts sharply when the subject of Catullus has been brought up while talking to her husband. As discussed in class the decision of Catullus to use the word sharp in describing her behavior had some consideration. The way she acts can be sharp to all three people involved in this event, Catullus, Lesbia, and her husband. Obviously this can hurt Catullus since he is the one being talked badly about. Also, if what Catullus later concludes as Lesbia acting like this so her husband is pleased and there is no question of her feelings towards Catullus, Lesbia can feel hurt since she has to fake how she feels. But along with that idea, her husband can be hurt by the behavior since his wife would be wanting another man.
What i found to be interesting was what Catullus thinks because of what happened. Since Lesbia remembers and also because she gets fired up over Catullus, he believes it means she has to have feelings for him. After reading poem 109 I see that his conclusion did turn out to be true, but it still fascinates me since I would not have come to the same assumption as Catullus.

109

This poem definitely shows Catullus's advancement with this lady who he loves. Now there has been a promise, which Catullus prays is sincere, binding them to sacred friendship. Before, he was only watching her. Apparently Catullus and her have had a conversation which means the relationship is not only him looking at her. Before it was surface observations, her looks astonished him leaving him speechless. There's actually something for Catullus to have feelings about.
The theme of love is ever present in Catullus's poems. In fact, there hasn't been one poem we've read about anything other than his love and his passion. Poem 51 is him being jealous and getting very worked up over the woman he is infatuated with. Poem 2 he even is passionate about her pet bird. It's evident love is something of importance to Catullus.

2

I believe this poem is about Catullus thinking of the woman he is in love with playing with her favorite bird, a sparrow. He would like to ease her pains and any grief she may have by playing with her or something of the sort. I'm not sure, but it seems as though it is his desire to do so..he wants "her heavy passion (to) become quiet".
It has become clear, from poem 51 and this one, that love and passion are key things to Catullus. It seems his life revolves around love. This makes sense considering love is something we discussed that matters greatly in our world. Love always has been vital to all of mankind and will continue to be so forever.
Catullus is heavily fixated on this woman. The people, and apparently the animals, she makes encounters with are all he wants to be. He wants to be the man who gets to listen to her and be the bird she plays with to comfort her. More specifically, her love is what matters to him.

51

This poem is about Catullus seeing a woman be clearly loves and refers to as 'you' with another man and how he reacts to that sight. When we were reading it, it felt like it needed to be spoken with a voice of desperation and frustration.
He is definitely passionate about this woman considering the jealous effects he feels from seeing her simply talking to another guy. Not only does he undergo feelings of jealousy when seeing her but she seems to hypnotize him and he loses his basic senses.
Catullus' poem is able to be connected to by people from any time. No matter what the date is, the way he captured the sensations and body feedback of being infatuated with somebody is truly timeless. Those effects don't change just because the year does. His figures of speech, "a thin flame flows down under my limbs," give feeling and visions to the encounter he is explaining.
Overall, his poem hits deep emotions and allows unrequitted love to have a voice.